Pat Tillman

Tis a shame when even your military commanders judge you for not believing the same things they do.

"Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Kauzlarich, Regimental Executive Officer at Forward Operating Base Salerno on Khowst, Afghanistan under which Tillman was serving at the time of his death, and who led the second investigation in to Tillman's death, has made controversial statements about the Tillman family?s search for the truth based on Tillman's apparent agnosticism. In comments to ESPN, Kauzlarich said: "These people have a hard time letting it go. It may be because of their religious beliefs" and "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don?t believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing and now he is no more... I don't know how an atheist thinks, I can only imagine that would be pretty tough." "

The last man to see Tillman alive admitted to his chaplain:

" (while under fire)I fell to the ground praying for god to save me, Corporal Tillman kicked me and ordered me to get up and that no god was going to come down and save me, you have to save yourself"

I still think there's more to this story. For those that didn't know it,Tillman was one of ours....and may have died for it???

There are rumors that Tillman was "fragged" (killed by his own troops) but of course we can't really expect a truly impartial inquest into this matter can we? It is interesting to note that a hero was being made out of Tillman until it came out that he was an atheist.

For a frightening look at religion in the military read "With God On Our Side" by Mikey Weinstein. Mikey is the lawyer who brought a suit against the Pentagon on behalf of Jeffery Hall, the Army specialist who was prevented from forming an atheist group in his company in Iraq. Hall was also threatened for his lack of belief. He is no longer in Iraq and I think the lawsuit goes on.

BTW the subtitle to Mikey's book is "One Man's War Against An Evangelical Coup In America's Military". That's pretty scary. The Military Religious Freedom Foundation was founded by Mr. Weinstein to aid in this "war". Get up to date by going to Military Religious Freedom Foundation

Wow, Thanks John,
Hard to believe just a couple months ago, I didn't even know you guys existed, and so many of you have so much knowledge on the subject. The military angle is one more of the things I'm passionate about because of my own experiences in VietNam. I also was not aloud to discuss my beliefs and was not aloud to put my religious beliefs on my dog tags. Again, Thanks to so many of you for sharing your knowledge...D

My daughter has a friend who was in Iraq and he wasn't allowed to put "agnostic" on his dog tags either, I think it said "unspecified".

Dave, we all get a crash course when we first find groups like these- we're all still learning and trying to figure out wtf to do next.

Speaking of Pat Tillman and atheism, one can never hear enough the words his brother Rich spoke at his funeral:

"Pat isn't with God. He's f*cking dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f*cking dead."

Now that's called telling it like it is...

However, I think that it is unlikely Pat was fragged for being an atheist. Just don't see it happening. Having served in combat arms units before, I think that things such as creed and color largely go out the window when you're being shot at. And also drawing upon my experience, friendly fire accidents are far more common than most people think.

However, I think that it is unlikely Pat was fragged for being an atheist. Just don't see it happening. Having served in combat arms units before, I think that things such as creed and color largely go out the window when your being shot at. And also drawing upon my experience, friendly fire accidents are far more common than most people think.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. Some Army veterans I know have pointed out a number of incidents in the past where the Rangers have covered up mistakes and misconduct, not to protect the nation or the Army, but to protect the reputation of the Rangers as a unit. Including multiple cases of transferring soldiers out of the Rangers just prior to initiating courts-martial.

Speaking of Pat Tillman and atheism, one can never hear enough the words his brother Rich spoke at his funeral:

"Pat isn't with God. He's f*cking dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f*cking dead."

Now that's called telling it like it is...

That's f*cking amazing! You mean he didn't "go quietly into that dark night", he just DIED? How awesome, especially for his family, not to have to be drug through an emotional wringer in addition to dealing with the sadness of his loss.

When we die, the sum total of who we were will be the memories of the people we interacted with. In that one sense, we do go on. Pat's legacy is larger now in his death than it ever was in his life, here's hoping it will make an impression on people that someone of his character was not a religious nutter.

However, I think that it is unlikely Pat was fragged for being an atheist. Just don't see it happening. Having served in combat arms units before, I think that things such as creed and color largely go out the window when you're being shot at. And also drawing upon my experience, friendly fire accidents are far more common than most people think.

I'd say the jury's out on this one, except that I doubt it is- I doubt anyone's looking into it. I have friends who have told me that race and religion did in fact play a part in their experience in the armed services- it probably depends on the particular group. The point is it's been a long time since anyone even had to wonder if anyone was killed for being a christian anymore- the persecuted have become the persecutors, and they have been for a very long time. Whether or not he was killed for his lack of belief, he was certainly harassed about it.

I'm a Vietnam combat veteran and things may have been different then than now, but I did not experience any pressure one way or the other regarding religion. For the most part, the military was pretty much neutral on religion. OTOH, the topic was seldom discussed. More frequently one's political views were questioned. This was the hippie era and with that much anti war sentiment. Many of us in the military leaned that way. Particularly the younger troops. There was always a conflict between the first term enlistees and the "lifers" as we called the career soldiers. They were throwbacks to the WWII era and largely living in the past. These guys resented us big time and they were the ones mostly in control. You could easily get singled out and given the less desirable duties and sometimes even beaten up if you voiced your liberal views. Gays were not tolerated at all. I found it quite ironic that the agency tasked with defending our liberties was, in fact, a fascist organization. I was not yet a confirmed atheist, but I was definitely headed in that direction. Mostly I was indifferent about religion at that time. Once out of school I was able to leave religion in the past. Yes, there were remnants remaining and I think to some minor degree that continues to this day. Brainwashing is very difficult to shake off completely and permanently. That's really what makes it such an abomination. Some of the damage is irreparable. Pat Tillman is dead and I think he along with some 4,000+ others died in vain, but they all deserve our gratitude for their service to the country even if it was misdirected by our leaders. Five hundred years from now no one will remember who any of us were. We along with nearly everyone else alive today will be completely forgotten. There really is not much difference between that end condition and having never lived in the first place. All that we have is the here and now. The past does not exist and neither does the future. We only have very imperfect memories of the past or perhaps second hand descriptions. We had best make the most of the now! It's really all that we have! And now we return to the regular programming...