Can you be a conservative and be an atheist at the same time...............

I came across this little post on the ucsd site: http://adultthought.u...

I know not all atheists are left wingers, so I was wondering can you carry on as a conservative with the rest of the crowd or can you completely distance yourself from a lot of the pundits out there that spew hatred of "non-believers"?

I think you have to be a little more nuanced than to just talk about "conservatives" and "atheists", because there are different kinds of each. In particular, for the purposes of this question, there are social conservatives and fiscal conservatives. There are a BOATLOAD of atheists who are fiscal conservatives, particularly of the libertarian and objectivist stripes. Social conservatives are much less compatible with atheism, because most of their agenda is religion-based.

Personally, I'm pretty "left wing" (to use your term) but I also have a few libertarian impulses, particularly when it comes to human and constitutional rights and fiscal prudence. I would LOVE to see more outspoken conservatives explicitly disavowing the lunatic fringe of the so-called conservative movement. Clearly, some of these loons aren't really even espousing conservative values. I'm not conservative, but I value the contributions of conservatives when they are thoughtful and congruent with the Age of Enlightenment (N.B.: NOT christian) philosophy on which this nation was founded.

We all know their names of the self-appointed "spokespeople" of conservatism, but we also see private citizens who follow those "leaders" to tea parties and town hall meetings and engage in ignorant, racist, self-destructive and anti-American behavior. In my opinion, to the extent that thoughtful conservatives fail to actively marginalize these loons and their sponsors, they are equally culpable for those excesses.

You know it's funny, when I read the title to this thread, I thought to myself, "Wait, you mean most atheists aren't conservative???" I think to some extent we tend to think that whatever combination of beliefs we hold, that others who share some of our beliefs will fall into a similar grouping. But it doesn't always work out that way.

I grew up a Catholic Republican, and I remember a few years back a friend of mine telling me that Catholics were more likely to be liberal than conservative. I didn't believe him until I looked it up myself--and sure enough he was right. I just expected that because I was a Catholic Republican, that most Catholics were also Republicans.

For several years now, I've considered myself most closely aligned with libertarian beliefs (to Bill's point). I see a lot of value in the liberal and conservative point of view, but the way both ideologies are being implemented in Washington today leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion.

I was a Republican Catholic because my parents were. It took a long time to rationally think my way into atheism, where I proudly sit today. Similarly, it took me awhile to rationally think my way into libertarianism. And now that I'm an atheist libertarian, it never fails to surprise me when I meet an atheist who isn't libertarian, or a libertarian who isn't atheist.

I'm a libertarian, too but a lot of the atheists I meet are hard core liberals who can't figure out why I disagree with them on many issues. People tend to be very partisan in their views and get thrown for a loop when they come into contact with someone who doesn't neatly fit a particular ideological mold. For example, while I am generally socially liberal, pro-choice, pro-gay rights, etc., I am also a pro-gun rights, anti illegal immigration, anti bilingual education and anti the general liberal notion that we should "respect everyone's beliefs." This usually makes me a pariah in both liberal and conservative circles but almost the norm in libertarian circles.

Thanks for your feedback. I should have been a bit more specific, I know that there are differences especially when it comes down to fiscal and moral conservatism.

Born into Catholicism, Hispanic at that, I know that this group (ethnic fundamentalists), tend to be liberal in the whole governmental intervention of human services.

When it comes to issues such as same sex marriage I see there are those within the black community that are very vocal against this practice.

Another reason I bring this up is because I notice that there are a good number of Libertarians within the atheist/agnostic crowd but when I look into definitions of Libertarian the descriptions vary widely depending on who or what the source is.

I guess I just chose a website with the usual list of loonies that have come to represent conservatives in the eyes of many like mine. I was thinking more of the Republican conservatives that tend to take up a lot of the time slots on tv and radio, and it makes me wonder if you can really be an atheists and be a Repub?

I agree with a lot of the sentiments of the previous posting (sorry, I forgot the name attached), in that I support gay and women's rights, and am socially fairly liberal, so I've been told. My notion of Republicans as a whole is someone who takes orders well, not unlike a military cadet, and is willing to allow someone else to define what it is they believe. My introduction to and experience of atheism is more the opposite, a person who has given thought to the beliefs of various (or a singular) religions, and have found them wanting in any number of ways.
So in short, my answer is maybe, although I have yet to meet one.

when I look into definitions of Libertarian the descriptions vary widely

Efren-- you are correct, the definitions of Libertarian, Liberal, and Conservative are all somewhat subjective. Ask two different conservatives what it means to them to be conservative, and you'll likely get two fairly different answers (same with liberals and libertarians).

The most important part of libertarianism for me is keeping government small and not restricting free trade. Federal government should be minimal--this could be restricted to just border defense, law enforcement, patent/competition protection (e.g. anti-monopoly), and perhaps infrastructure (roads/highways). All of which are funded by a very low tax rate (because there are few services being provided). Free trade implies no tariffs, import taxes, price controls (e.g. minimum wage), etc...let the free market dictate supply and demand without distortions.

The other big part for most libertarians is maintenance of personal freedoms (and limiting government's ability to restrict these freedoms). This might mean freedom to bear arms, freedom from intrusive wiretapping, etc. I'm personally not AS concerned with the "personal freedoms" area as I am with the economic area, but it is very important nonetheless.

I have met several people in my life who were socially liberal and fiscally conservative (so called blue dog Democrats). In my experience many of these people were closer to libertarianism than they were to the modern-day Democratic party. As I grew up, I identified myself as Republican because the party line was "lower taxes, smaller government" (I didn't care as much about the social aspect of politics (e.g. abortion, gay rights, etc.)--they just weren't front-burner issues for me). But in my lifetime, Republicans have spent as much or more money as Democrats, and so as maintaining a limited government was my biggest issue, I was left disgruntled in my political affiliation for several years, and really became apolitical. Once I researched libertarianism, though, I found my answer, as it's basically the party of "government--stay the hell out of our lives" platform, both economically and socially.

This might already be clear to some, but I think there are a couple of things to decouple here. Please excuse me if I go beyond the original topic, and if there are some generalizations.

1) One can be a social conservative and an atheist at the same time. The socially conservative values of religious conservatives overlap with socially conservative values in general, but one need not be religious to hold many of the same views.

2) What we see in popular conservatism right now is alienating to atheists not simply because it is fundamentalist, but because it is anti-intellectual and intolerant.

What is conservatism?

Off the top of my head, I think of the core American social conservative values as (in no particular order) 1) being concerned with the welfare of society as a whole, 2) respect for tradition, 3) respect for other people, 4) respect for authority 5) an understanding of human nature as tending towards selfishness when not held accountable 6) skepticism towards radical changes 7) belief in individual responsibility and economic self-sufficiency, and 8) respect for the law as the means by which order and justice are maintained in society. This is in addition to values such as freedom, democracy, and equality which are shared by all Americans and define American thought. These values add up to a worldview that is nationalistic, somewhat communalistic, law abiding, whose narrative is of America as the "city on a hill."

How does conservatism differ from other political ideologies?

Conservatives, I think, want to allow the greatest possible space for individual responsibility and achievement, but require common sacrifice when society as a whole is threatened, as in the case of war or respect for the law. They differ from liberals in 1) their overall positive view of American history, 2) dislike of the expanding scope of the state, vis a vis society, 3) believe that personal responsibility and equality requires that individuals should reap the benefits of their actions, and suffer the consequences too, (albeit with a minimal safety net so people don't starve). 4) respect for order and authority. They differ from libertarians in that they think that the role of the individual is not simply that of a rationally self-interested economic actor, but as a member of a community which is an organic whole, a political entity with a common history and common future and thus requires that individuals sacrifice for the needs of the nation at times. In other words, libertarians tend to derive their politics from ideals of individualism, while conservatives sometimes think from a more community oriented standpoint. Libertarians also respect the law, but often don't share the same respect for authority and Whiggish worldview of conservatives.

Thus conservative values are not in any way inimical to a secular worldview, nor inherently intolerant. The problem is that a certain strain of intolerant anti-intellectual populism has taken over the mainstream conservative movement. The question you are asking is does one hold onto one's self-identification as a conservative in light of the ascendance of "pundits out there that spew hatred of 'non-believers.'" This is a false dilemma. I believe one can stand aside from this crowd and keep one's self-identification at the same time, by simply keeping in mind that all mass political movements have populist underbellies that rise to the surface every now and again.

From personal experience I can say that a socially conservative atheist can feel at home with tolerant religious conservatives, because at the end of the day, you know you're all part of the same community with the same basic values and the same basic worldview, vis a vis American society. You might disagree on a few issues like abortion, gay rights, and separation of church and state, but you stand together for minimal government at home, strength abroad, law and order, kindness, tolerance, etc. However, this depends in large part on the group of people you're dealing with. There are two aspects to this: ostracism and lack of understanding. First, whatever their attitude towards atheism, if individual conservatives choose to ostracize atheists, one cannot feel at home with them, and if they are tolerant, one can. The second aspect is that those conservatives who unthinkingly accede to the opinions of Glen Beck, et al. tend to be less intellectual, and I think it is difficult for a thoughtful person of any kind to feel at home with unthoughtful people. This is the general frustration of atheists, at least in my experience. Additionally, I think you can apply the same analysis to liberals as well, and to any relation between an intellectual minority and a large political movement.

So to answer your question,

1) Whether you can get along with the crowd really depends on which part of the crowd you're talking about.
2) You can distance yourself from the more extreme pundits but still self-identify as a conservative. Conservatism is not defined by this exclusionary populist upwelling.

You see a number of more thoughtful religious conservatives doing the same, like David Brooks, Joe Scarborough, or David Frum. There's actually a website for secular conservatives too (secularright.org).

Cheers,
Wally

Hey, sorry I did go on a bit didn't I? I didn't read Efraim's last post about being Republican and atheist. So, for my part, I was a Republican until 2004, then left because of the GOP's religiosity.

Here's a related chart from that new poll, showing that the Republican share of the non-religious went from 21% in 1990 to 13% in 2008.

http://friendlyatheis...

Gee Wally, thank you for that well thought out reply and input to this message board.

I used to listen to Bill O' and Glenn Beck radio shows a few years ago but burned out after a while. The whole Terry Schiavo(?) deal in FLA sorta turned me off with people, including Beck bringing in religion trying to make their case in not pulling the plug on the poor lady.

That's what I like about this group and message board, some good input, no drama.

I used to belong to a Philosophy Meetup till' I brought up the question "Is there a God?", the emotional and lack of rational thinking backed arguments dissapointed me, so I left.