Is anyone here brave enough to watch this entire film?

If we can live healthy lives without causing suffering, should we, as beings with the ability to make that choice, to live that compassionate way, do otherwise?

I just don't understand how anyone can comprehend the suffering of another creature, and simply not care about it. That thought is tearing me up. I have actually been crying all day.

Again, I urge people to really just watch this film, and think about things. Maybe it won't change you. But maybe it will... and maybe that will be a good thing.

-----------------------------------------------------
There are descriptions in news stories of Buddhist monks who worry about the ants that have come into their monastery. The ants represent a real problem for the monks. It seems the monks do not want to injure or disturb the ants in any way. They are certainly being compassionate but I don't think the ants appreciate it. They are trying not to cause suffering to the ants.

We should also feel for soldiers or civilians in any war in combat with any other nation. I see the images on the BBC website of an old woman that had her home blown up by Russian forces. I feel for her and I think it is not something I would want any relative or any old person to experience. I saw the fear, the discomfort, in her face. She did not appear injured but it was definetely a terrible experience for her to live through. War goes on. We need to do something about it. We need to learn from history. We need to feel compassion.

If a cheetah catches an antelope I may imagine the antelopes pain but I cannot do anything about it. The cheetah has to eat and something has to die. I recognize that as natural and normal.

If an antelope eats grass I recognize that it has to eat if it is going to continue to live. If one microbe swallows another microbe it is because it has to live. We do not fuss about an antelope eating grass or a microbe eating another microbe. They are distant and removed as life forms. The soldiers and civilians are also distant and removed. They are not people we know. We can relate and we can imagine and feel for them but it is nonetheless a relationship several times removed.

I notice that 6 of the 7 animals you mention are all mammals. We feel closer to mammals than we do to other classes such as reptiles or amphibians or insects(phylum?). Mammals are closer to us and mean more.

When there is an insect that has unfortunately appeared in my sink, I make an effort to get it out tenderly and place it outside. I do not want to damage it or injure it because I want it to be able to go on and function well in its environment and survive. Whatever insect it may be it can go out to be a predator or a prey or eat some plant or mold. I don't think any of us are indifferent to the pain of other creatures. But things eat other things. We need to get energy into our systems. It is biology.

Another thing to imagine is that there is much life that has evolved and been extinguished as an individual life form or as a species. Things die. Things go extinct. They vanish from the earth. These are simply natural things. This is the way we are talking and this is what we are recognizing about the natural world and ourselves in our conversations.
***
We have been removed and disconnected from the food that we eat. That is the way things work around here. If we hunted food we would feel a connection. We might do as some tribal people do and feel gratitude to the animal for having given up its life for our sustenance. We are animals in the world and we eat. We need to get energy into our systems. It is biology. I recognize it as a normal thing in the world.

I can recognize the suffering of many creatures and simply not be able to do anything about it or recognize that it would be foolish for me to do something about it.

I do see what you say about living a healthy life and being able to make a choice to avoid the suffering of another animal. So be vegetarian you suggest. If species are going extinct and environments and ecosystems are going to hell then become an environmentlist, I suggest. If human suffering bothers us then we do something about that through peace keeping, anti-war protests, missionary work, homeless shelters and other things. We are not perfect. We don't have the time or expertise to handle all the issues. We have to make a living.

But if you are crying and apparently pressuring us with your pain then perhaps we should ask for an inventory of your life and present life style to determine where your behavior might fail to meet up with our values and how we can correct them. There are certainly things we can all work on together. I recognize that this issue is important to you. Perhaps what we should do is ponder what we are going to eat and feel gratitude somehow for the sustenance that allows our own lives to continue whether it be plant or animal or synthesized organic chemicals.

...again, not intended for any one person...

Another thing I was going to say is, lot's of us have our Pet Causes, (no pun intended) sometimes to the point where we become One Dimensional: It's all about our cause, and if you're not with me then you're against me and you're stupid, bad, or whatever.

That's the issue I have with videos like that and the message it sends. Now I can understand why the video is there but there's a bigger world out there and other problems that are bigger than the slaughter of animals. And it's all overwhelming for all of us to solve, assuming we even agree it's a problem to begin with.

1. How about the slaughter of millions of people NOT FOR FOOD.
2. Inequality
3. Starvation
4. Famine
5. Disease
6. Religion
7. War
8. Violence for the sake of violence
9. Terrorism (state sponsored too)

The list goes on and on and on...and for every item listed there's a person or people who are dedicated to that ONE CAUSE and they're whole life revolves around that ONE CAUSE...and if you're not on board then you're part of the problem.

It's ok to have a cause, but don't castigate people because they don't goose step to YOUR CAUSE.

There's too much out there to rally behind, and it's overwhelming for anybody.

If you want to end up alone in the world (with your pets), then have your ONE CAUSE and you can hole up in your house hating the world since we're not as smart or good as you. Then you can write your manifesto of your superiority and that will change everything as the world opens it's eyes up to your glorious righteousneous.

Or you can chill out, relax, have a beer and embrace the chaos. Just goooo toooo sssllleeep.

ok paul (novel writing aside) I just want to ask (and I'm certain I will regret opening this can of worms) how on earth can you compare fetal posters to videos of tortured animals? I know 87% of Americans will disagree with me here (strange coincidence because 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot). But the animals in those videos are...you know..."out and about"...you know, all living, and loving, and screaming (actually I don't know what the animals are doing on the video bc I didn't watch it -sorry Andrea - but I've posted peta videos before for the same reason and I believe it DID make a huge difference).

Andrea, I feel your frustration. I find in times like these, it helps me to plan a veggie pot luk with friends, or just a trip to Green or Veggie Heaven. Much like how I NEED our meet-ups when I nobody in my "normal" life agrees with me on religion. So, just know that at least one other veg head is here for when times get overwhelming.

~ Fin ~

Again..this is intended for Paul :-) famine can be wiped out if we were all vegetarians. It's a known fact. Just sayin'

Thanks for responding Brandy. Now, where's Jose to remark on your rare post?

I'm referring to the use of photo/written/or video based propaganda to try to get an extreme emotional response from people to modify their behavior. Also with this medium comes the attempt at extreme emotional shock to get people out of a logical state and into an unreasonable state of thinking so they'll "change".

I've seen these videos before and the initial response is "oh crap...I'll never eat a hamburger again". Then at 2 a.m. after closing down the bar, I'm hungry, Whataburger's open and now you know the rest of the story.

It's also a real low way of trying to get people to change their habits too. The pictures of fetuses and pictures of slaughtered animals, I mean. All that happens is the viewer feels shame, or guilt...or both (some people) or resentment toward the person showing the photo/video, helplessness on the part of the viewer, then several things happen; a backlash when the person recovers, or instantly, psychological trauma (like what I witnessed recently).

It's much better to show people logical alternatives that are easily available, affordable, usable, tasty and with some people, with no social stigma involved for partaking.

Shaming or guilting people doesn't work; it's slimy, and only has a temporary intended effect. Meanwhile the other effects can be permanent...kind of like how religious nut-jobs try to shame people about enjoying sex, then they grow up and have problems in the bedroom.

It's also One Dimensional. It says, this is my cause and you need to be on board. But look into that person's background and you'll find all kinds of hypocrisy going on.

Also, it's ineffective because it automatically let's people instantly label the purveyor of such fine photos and videos a whacko. This sets the stage for social stigma, out-grouping, labeling etc and then the whole movement gets discredited. After, nobody will listen even when others in the movement are making sense. It's self defeating.

Using the Nazi's as an analogy was incredibly awful in these videos. Yeah, that's a great way to get people to stop eating meat...tell them they're Nazi's for eating at McDonalds. I wonder how many people will put the Nazi and Kosher thing together. Wow, if I was Jewish, I'd be a little peeved that my meat packing practice was analogous to the Nazis Ouch!!!

Also, Brandy if you have a Veggie Potluck count me in. If you go to Veggie Heaven again...count me in.

I know...as you stated, you only hang out with us when your "normal" friends get to be too much.

I guess that makes you "double cool"? You have your "normal" firends and then us "freaks" otherwise.

I think we all understand now.



Also keep in mind, Andrea is Vegan and you are Vegetarian. You're still complicit in the murder of animals for their products and she's not.

So nah nee nah nee boo boo!!!

On another note...

The videos shot plenty of footage of the 3rd Reich and compared the meat industry to being analogous to the Nazis, yet Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian.

"Well Isn't it ironic...don't you think?"

"A little too ironic...yeah I really do think"

"Like OMG, does that mean that like all vegetarians are like Nazis n' stuff?"

"Perhaps what we should do is ponder what we are going to eat and feel gratitude somehow for the sustenance that allows our own lives to continue whether it be plant or animal or synthesized organic chemicals.' That sounds like prayer before lunch. Bart Simpson ~ " Rub a Dub Dub, thanks for the grub, YaY god."

Andrea I am on board with you. I feel the pain and loss with every life that is extinguished. I actually have trouble sleeping at night because of this very thing (no BS). But there is a simple way of dealing with the pain. Understanding. Acceptance. Realization. Understanding that not all feel empathy in the same way, Acceptance that automatism if a poor substitute for individualism, and Realization that one does not simply change the world by a video or a speech.

The truth is that no matter how you or I feel about the horrific practices of others, they will continue. I would no rather attack someone for their beliefs than cut off my naughty parts. Mainly because this is what we are, a diverse sentience of individuals with our own integrities and mores.

To dwell on the perceived indignation of others will only lead to sleepless nights. But, to accept that absolution is relative and that one's perspective is only one's perspective will lead to an appreciation of contextual indivisibility. To use common lexicon "It takes all kinds".

May I say again I feel the pain, it plagues me like a cold familiar knife. The thing which I think you are missing is that you are an individual who thinks, feels and interprets different than the person next to you. There are many like you who feel that it is incomprehensible to continue a pattern of harm when the fix is so apparent. I am one of those. But, I will not (under any circumstances) let the choices of others "ruin my day". I cannot change others minds all I can do is challenge their minds.

I am not trying to consul you, that is impossible for those who think as we do, but I am trying to speak sense to someone of like mind. We are just a small percentage of what makes up the human species and we cannot afford to offend or alienate those who would be on our side.

You could call me a wishy-washy person (that is a valid criticism), one who would compromise their convictions, but I'd like to think I am just a realist trying to function in an imperfect world.

Indignation is a strong emotion, and I am guilty of harboring this very same sentiment, the truth is that biology is hard to fight and I must admit, as a vegetarian, I still miss a 20 oz porterhouse but fighting nature is what makes us different from other animals.

I know and feel every indignation that is forced on the species of this planet by an overpowering parasite (humans). I also know that we did not end up at the top because we were squeamish. As a species, we have fulfilled our role, this may end with our extinction, clearly by our own hands, or an eminent planetary conquest (which may have already been accomplished). This is not a question of "Do we deserve to exist?" this is a question (after winning the genetic lottery) of "Can we continue to exist?"

Andrea, whether these videos make an impact on others or not is not important, if these videos made an impact on you (change your way of thinking, or reinforce it) is the real importance. They reinforced my world view, as have many other sources of information. Truly what they should do is to affect your personal determination to speak what you believe and to continue your lifestyle, but not (like religious texts do) to encourage you to "force" your view on others.

just a caveat ,

Also keep in mind, Andrea is Vegan and you are Vegetarian. You're still complicit in the murder of animals for their products and she's not. ~Paul


That is completely incorrect, Vegetarians are not complicit in the murder of animals. We just don't have the money to be full blown vegans. Maybe, just maybe, I can't afford cannabis clothing. Did you ever think of the fact that I'm just poor. No of course not. =) Kidding yo. Not about the poor part (I'm poor).

......how on earth can you compare fetal posters to videos of tortured animals? I know 87% of Americans will disagree with me here (strange coincidence because 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot). But the animals in those videos are...you know..."out and about"...you know, all living, and loving, and screaming .
~ Fin ~

So.....

it's NOT ok to kill something ONLY as long as they are....you know....out and about.

Or better yet....

it's NOT ok to kill something ONLY as long as your choice in media to communicate your message is more effective than another.

And some more.....

So living things only have merit when judged by a certain standard. That standard being the one made up by the individual(s) who decide what that standard is so long as it complies with their cause.

I can go on forever if you would like.